Bar fights in Mankato

[Free Press Editor Joe Spear]

Mankato P.D. was certainly kept busy last weekend. It seems like its getting to a level of rioting. I hope we have enough people on duty. Maybe this issue should go to our "spotlight" on solutions thread. Any ideas? A few years ago, Minneapolis and St. Paul enlisted volunteers called "guardian angels" to quell gang activity. They wore red berets and had a mainly symbolic effect of "hey we're here to watch" etc. and assist if need be...Kind of a civilian army. Thoughts?

http://tinyurl.com/dl7tbh

[Dan Conner]

Mankato P.D. was certainly kept busy last weekend. It seems like its getting to a level of rioting. I hope we have enough people on duty. Maybe this issue should go to our "spotlight" on solutions thread. Any ideas? A few years ago, Minneapolis and St. Paul enlisted volunteers called "guardian angels" to quell gang activity. They wore red berets and had a mainly symbolic effect of "hey we're here to watch" etc. and assist if need be...Kind of a civilian army. Thoughts?

http://tinyurl.com/dl7tbh

I'm concerned about the potential for violence and certainly the vandalism that has occurred downtown. I think there is an unusually dense population of bars in the downtown area. That might add to the problem. I know nothing about the guardian angel vigilantees.

Certainly the city needs to crack down quickly before they lose control downtown. I've traded posts with a person on this forum that thinks the bar situation downtown is fine, even though I have told him about vandalism. Also, there has been all sorts of deplorable behavior around the bars too. Defecating, vomiting, and urinating on floors and walls along with various sexual exploits.

I don't approve of a bar's right to do business if it isn't enforcing at least a minimum level of patron responsibility. Maybe a more critical eye given to removing liquor licenses from chronic offenders.

[Ben Willaert]

I think we all need to go downtown on a Saturday night and have a look see. If at any point any of us can’t see either a bar security staff or a police officer I will be very surprised. One thing would be for sure, downtown is not lacking security oversight.

I wonder if the current economic situation is fraying on peoples nerves. Sitting at home collecting unemployment checks can be frustrating. People need to have secure jobs to be productive and to feel good about themselves. There was just an article about “muni’s” doing well with people buying more alcohol. That indicates people are medicating with alcohol. Unfortunately, having a few drinks can amplify the frustration.

[Bob Jentges]

Since I do not go to the bars in downtown Mankato except for very special occassions e.g. retirement party, wedding reception, etc., I am really not in a position to offer much about what goes on down there until I do actually observe it first hand, except what I read/hear/see on the news. But as a general rule I do not think it is a good idea to have that many bars located in such close proximinity to each other irrespective of the draw from events at the Civic Center.

[Dan Conner]

I think we all need to go downtown on a Saturday night and have a look see. If at any point any of us can’t see either a bar security staff or a police officer I will be very surprised. One thing would be for sure, downtown is not lacking security oversight.

I wonder if the current economic situation is fraying on peoples nerves. Sitting at home collecting unemployment checks can be frustrating. People need to have secure jobs to be productive and to feel good about themselves. There was just an article about “muni’s” doing well with people buying more alcohol. That indicates people are medicating with alcohol. Unfortunately, having a few drinks can amplify the frustration.

I don't care to go downtown, unless for a need to go downtown and I don't often get that need. However, I was more familiar with it when I worked there.

I am surprised you say people need secure jobs. While that is obvious on its face, how do you propose that happen? Business would probably like to have secure jobs for people too. Of course, they would like to have secure business too. The question should be, what do you propose to do about it?

[Ben Willaert]

Bob-
When I first turned 21 the bars were all over Mankato. Everyone drove all over the place to “hop” to every bar. At least now with all the bars in one place you can drive down, park, and walk from bar to bar. It also gives a central location for catching a cab or finding a sober ride home. Since my drinking days are behind me, I usually end up filling our Explorer (it is amazing how many drunks can fit in that third seat) a couple times taking people home after bar close.

Another difference from then to now is that if you wanted to get into a fight all you had to do was step outside. The bouncers would just watch and maybe call the police. Now any scuffle is converged on by multiple security personnel anywhere downtown. The police can be right there since all the bars are in the same spot.

As for the civic center, isn’t that what most cities do? The Republican national convention even got a 4am bar closing for all the convention goers. Providing a safe, energetic entertainment area close to the convention centers is a draw for conventions.

[Ben Willaert]

I don't care to go downtown, unless for a need to go downtown and I don't often get that need. However, I was more familiar with it when I worked there.

I am surprised you say people need secure jobs. While that is obvious on its face, how do you propose that happen? Business would probably like to have secure jobs for people too. Of course, they would like to have secure business too. The question should be, what do you propose to do about it?

That has been what all our other discussions have been about, allowing the free market to flourish. Right now I think the most important thing is to get the intelligent, educated people that are laid off right now into new and upcoming businesses. There is nothing like being part of something with potential, to get people on the right track. Get people to use their brains again. That is why the help needs to get them back on their feet quickly.

But I don’t want to hijack another thread.

[Ben Willaert]

I just thought of another difference. Energy drinks. People can get more pumped up and drink longer with these new popular energy drink/alcohol creations.

In my early 20’s I used a lot of ephedrine products to help with weight lifting and overall body appearance. I can tell you from first hand experience mixing them with alcohol can make a person real touchy. These energy drinks are very similar to ephedrine.

I hate to look for bans on products, but the day of banning energy drinks is coming. People don’t understand the adverse health effects they can cause. There are going to be links to high blood pressure, heart disease and probably even strokes. They also pose many new risks when combined with alcohol, including irritability and endurance for more drinking. They have the same effects as methamphetamines in a weaker version.

[Dan Conner]

That has been what all our other discussions have been about, allowing the free market to flourish. Right now I think the most important thing is to get the intelligent, educated people that are laid off right now into new and upcoming businesses. There is nothing like being part of something with potential, to get people on the right track. Get people to use their brains again. That is why the help needs to get them back on their feet quickly.

But I don’t want to hijack another thread.

The free market spoke. That's why we are where we are. Financial markets operated with little to no oversight or regulation. So here we are. Maybe I should approach the issue this way. You tell me what specifically was done to prevent the "free market" from flourishing? Go ahead please name them. You frequently state the obvious about employing people, using the educated ones out there now, but then why isn't it happening? Is the government standing over business and saying that businesses are not allowed to flourish?

I think you greatly miss the point. There was just a program in public service television about the enormous strength of the Canadian economy. The program said that Canada stood a chance of coming out of this world-wide depression as a major world power. Their present economic strength is far greater than ours and they have virtually no debt.

The questions for you is, how was that small country able to achieve what it did with far, far, far more government regulation than ours? They have a national single-payer health insurance system. People in Canada would never trade their health system for ours.

It is the free market that has screwed us here. Even a very conservative and "free market" proponent, and former Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, said he was mistaken about allowing the financial markets to run without regulation or oversight. He thought the executives of financial companies would be more responsible and not get into these leveraged derivatives (even though he was a proponent of them, as well. He said he was wrong, and that more regulation was needed.

So, we're muddling around down here with a lot of poor decisions by our leaders. However, those poor decisions were not based in too much regulation, it was far too little.

[Dan Conner]

I just thought of another difference. Energy drinks. People can get more pumped up and drink longer with these new popular energy drink/alcohol creations.

In my early 20’s I used a lot of ephedrine products to help with weight lifting and overall body appearance. I can tell you from first hand experience mixing them with alcohol can make a person real touchy. These energy drinks are very similar to ephedrine.

I hate to look for bans on products, but the day of banning energy drinks is coming. People don’t understand the adverse health effects they can cause. There are going to be links to high blood pressure, heart disease and probably even strokes. They also pose many new risks when combined with alcohol, including irritability and endurance for more drinking. They have the same effects as methamphetamines in a weaker version.

Ben, you are a plethora of reasons why, but you are running at a deficit for solutions. The reasons why have already been explored. How about some ideas to remedy the problem?

[Bob Jentges]

Bob-
When I first turned 21 the bars were all over Mankato. Everyone drove all over the place to “hop” to every bar. At least now with all the bars in one place you can drive down, park, and walk from bar to bar. It also gives a central location for catching a cab or finding a sober ride home. Since my drinking days are behind me, I usually end up filling our Explorer (it is amazing how many drunks can fit in that third seat) a couple times taking people home after bar close.

Another difference from then to now is that if you wanted to get into a fight all you had to do was step outside. The bouncers would just watch and maybe call the police. Now any scuffle is converged on by multiple security personnel anywhere downtown. The police can be right there since all the bars are in the same spot.

As for the civic center, isn’t that what most cities do? The Republican national convention even got a 4am bar closing for all the convention goers. Providing a safe, energetic entertainment area close to the convention centers is a draw for conventions.

Ben, when I was attending college in Mankato in the late 50's there were essentially three downtown bars i.e. Mettlers, Rathskeller, and Club Royal where young people hung-out. They were all located in the vacinity of the present Mettlers or what ever it's called now. Two on one side of the street (the old Front Street) and one on the other. There were very, very few fights. I think the main reason may have been because the crowds were much smaller and the patrons mostly stayed inside the respective bars. The bar owners and bartenders pretty much knew their customers and kept them in line. If they did not behave they were shown the door, and if it happened too often they were not welcome to return. Furthermore word spread between bar owners about troublemakers and soon they had no place to go. Having so many bars concentrated in one area with a sort of city square in the middle where (weather permitting) the young people, most of who probably do not know each other congregate, becomes problematical.

If you could locate and talk with a police officer from those days who might still go downtown once in a while now, I think he might consider those the good old days. But that was then and this is now.

[Dan Conner]

Ben, when I was attending college in Mankato in the late 50's there were essentially three downtown bars i.e. Mettlers, Rathskeller, and Club Royal where young people hung-out. They were all located in the vacinity of the present Mettlers or what ever it's called now. Two on one side of the street (the old Front Street) and one on the other. There were very, very few fights. I think the main reason may have been because the crowds were much smaller and the patrons mostly stayed inside the respective bars. The bar owners and bartenders pretty much knew their customers and kept them in line. If they did not behave they were shown the door, and if it happened too often they were not welcome to return. Furthermore word spread between bar owners about troublemakers and soon they had no place to go. Having so many bars concentrated in one area with a sort of city square in the middle where (weather permitting) the young people, most of who probably do not know each other congregate, becomes problematical.

If you could locate and talk with a police officer from those days who might still go downtown once in a while now, I think he might consider those the good old days. But that was then and this is now.

It might seem amazing, but agree with you Bob.

[Ben Willaert]

I see your point of everyone staying to their bars. We can partially thank the smoking ban for getting everyone outside and mingling together. There is also a lot of cultural diversity going on in the bars as well. After TJ’s closed that crowd lost its bar. None of the bars want to cater to that crowd. Having a bar somewhere else in town that would be like the old Albatross or TJ’s may help calm things down more.

Another solution would be banning the energy drinks. Like I said earlier, they can really add to tension and people can get more drunk and stay more active when using them. Usually I would say education of negative effects is key over banning a product, but in this case energy drinks would become more popular if more people knew about them. Just like meth, they help a person party like a rock star all night long. College kids aren’t going to care about any side effects if they know that, not that they don’t already.

[Dan Conner]

I see your point of everyone staying to their bars. We can partially thank the smoking ban for getting everyone outside and mingling together. There is also a lot of cultural diversity going on in the bars as well. After TJ’s closed that crowd lost its bar. None of the bars want to cater to that crowd. Having a bar somewhere else in town that would be like the old Albatross or TJ’s may help calm things down more.

Another solution would be banning the energy drinks. Like I said earlier, they can really add to tension and people can get more drunk and stay more active when using them. Usually I would say education of negative effects is key over banning a product, but in this case energy drinks would become more popular if more people knew about them. Just like meth, they help a person party like a rock star all night long. College kids aren’t going to care about any side effects if they know that, not that they don’t already.

Isn't banning energy drinks kind of socialist? You seem to be interfering with capitalism. I think you are contradicting yourself again.

[David Habrat]

My but we stray from the question... Yes Joe I agree that additional law inforcement is a sensible responce to the trend of increased offenders. No, I do not see the value in gardian angels... Law breakers require a trained and immidiate responce under one badge. Perhaps a zoned fee on bars in the problem area for increased enforecement, cameras, signage...what ever it takes. The bars could call it a riot tax. 8PM could be the tax freedom happy hour.

[Free Press Editor Joe Spear]

Here are some statistics for thought on this topic. Feb. 13-14, the night of the heavy metal Buckcherry concert. Blue Earth County sheriffs answered 113 calls for service, many in and around downtomankato. Mankato Police a whopping 205. The previous friday saturday, 55 and 117, about 50 percent less...I wonder if that if figured into the Civic Center operating cost?

P.S. Dan. If you're going to turn a thread on bar fights into a socialism/capitalism discussion, you need to start a different thread.

[Ben Willaert]

Isn't banning energy drinks kind of socialist? You seem to be interfering with capitalism. I think you are contradicting yourself again.

You are right Dan, contradicting indeed. I was also very much against the smoking ban as an infringement on the bar owners rights to operate their business as they see fit. I would not object to a ban on energy drinks because I see no alternative. Is it a contradiction or the ability to look for the best solution for each problem? I’ve told you before I don’t stick to party lines or any one school of thought for everything. Maybe someday we will be able to talk about the rights of homosexuals to marry. Or even the viability of polygamy as a mini family socialism that allows for more family members to be bread winners while restoring the nurturing of a stay at home mother. But anyway, back to the thread.

I am very surprised that with all the attention that has been paid to the alcohol situation in Mankato, little has been said about energy drinks. Most people don’t understand what they do when mixed with alcohol. Let’s say a person goes out and binges on 12 beers and they pass out at 11pm. The next week they can go out again and just by adding energy drinks they can binge on 18 beers and stay up all night. That has a lot more dangerous potential, but is very appealing to young drinkers. A side effect is an intense irritability that can go along with it. One glance is enough to start a fight. I don’t see education reducing their use, so a ban may be the only alternative.

Here is another solution: How about playing Neil Diamond songs all night long from speakers on the Cherry St. ramp? Who could fight while hearing his songs?

[Dan Conner]

Here are some statistics for thought on this topic. Feb. 13-14, the night of the heavy metal Buckcherry concert. Blue Earth County sheriffs answered 113 calls for service, many in and around downtomankato. Mankato Police a whopping 205. The previous friday saturday, 55 and 117, about 50 percent less...I wonder if that if figured into the Civic Center operating cost?

P.S. Dan. If you're going to turn a threat on bar fights into a socialism/capitalism discussion, you need to start a different thread.
I didn't. I was turning the banning of energy drinks into "socialism/capitalism." I think either is irrelevant to the discussion of "bar fights." There is a big problem, if there are 200 calls of service for fighting, etc. That's getting way out of control. Even the 100+ calls is ridiculous. With that number, the entire police force will be diverted to the downtown and not the other areas of the city. I think an ultimatum has to be given to bars to actively help put a stop to this, or licenses need to be revoked. Or, bars can be assessed a very high additional price for police coverage. Either one should help reduce the fighting. I don't see how this can be allowed to continue. It is unfair to have a city subsidize inappropriately acting bars downtown. After a while, law abiding citizens will be afraid to go downtown.

[Ben Willaert]

Here are some statistics for thought on this topic. Feb. 13-14, the night of the heavy metal Buckcherry concert. Blue Earth County sheriffs answered 113 calls for service, many in and around downtomankato. Mankato Police a whopping 205. The previous friday saturday, 55 and 117, about 50 percent less...I wonder if that if figured into the Civic Center operating cost?



I would imagine that happens anywhere those bands go. Remember Rage Against the Machine tried to get demonstrators even more riled up at the Republican National Convention in St. Paul. They caused those police a lot more headaches. There is a fine line between free speech and inciting a riot, but bands like these are almost always considered to be on the free speech side. Policing those events is part of the price we pay for that free speech.

It could also be more people were downtown then usual. Wasn’t it one of the most attended events ever at the civic center?

[Dan Conner]

I would imagine that happens anywhere those bands go. Remember Rage Against the Machine tried to get demonstrators even more riled up at the Republican National Convention in St. Paul. They caused those police a lot more headaches. There is a fine line between free speech and inciting a riot, but bands like these are almost always considered to be on the free speech side. Policing those events is part of the price we pay for that free speech.

It could also be more people were downtown then usual. Wasn’t it one of the most attended events ever at the civic center?

You are trying to explain gross irresponsbility and juvenile behavior. These people need to become more responsible. It isn't the fault of energy drinks or alcohol. It is a bunch of irresponsible people who are not acting appropriately in public.

[Ben Willaert]

You are trying to explain gross irresponsbility and juvenile behavior. These people need to become more responsible. It isn't the fault of energy drinks or alcohol. It is a bunch of irresponsible people who are not acting appropriately in public.

Agreed, this is another issue where blame is not needed. People have to rise above the influences and mob mentality and do the right thing. Blaming alcohol, energy drinks or even the music are cop outs. The problem is not going to go away by getting rid of any of these things. I am a strong believer personal responsibility is not gained by limiting choices; on the contrary, the more our choices are limited the less responsible we become. There is also something to be said for us perceiving we are powerless in certain situations. Many people will do things they wouldn’t normally do because they think alcohol or other outside influences make them do it. In reality, we can control ourselves; we choose to buy into that misconception and act in poor taste. Dispelling the belief that we can just blame something besides ourselves for our behavior would help restore personal responsibility.

I hate to see such a fun area get a bad name. Many people very much enjoy themselves every weekend downtown without harming or infringing on anyone else’s happiness. I had mentioned in another thread how I enjoy showing off our downtown to friends and family from out of town. They are usually quite impressed.

Personally, I do not like energy drinks. Their popularity is huge right now. I fear they will be the next cigarettes though. At the high rate they are being consumed, I think they will have some serious long term health consequences. Adding them to alcohol is mixing a depressant and a stimulant. That is not good for one’s health either. I don’t think many people realize the negative side effects of this new toy. Banning energy drinks may not fix our poor behavior problems, but it may save people pain and agony in the future. I find it weird no one else sees this negative side like I do. Maybe I am just being overly paranoid and pessimistic.

[Dan Conner]

Agreed, this is another issue where blame is not needed. People have to rise above the influences and mob mentality and do the right thing. Blaming alcohol, energy drinks or even the music are cop outs. The problem is not going to go away by getting rid of any of these things. I am a strong believer personal responsibility is not gained by limiting choices; on the contrary, the more our choices are limited the less responsible we become. There is also something to be said for us perceiving we are powerless in certain situations. Many people will do things they wouldn’t normally do because they think alcohol or other outside influences make them do it. In reality, we can control ourselves; we choose to buy into that misconception and act in poor taste. Dispelling the belief that we can just blame something besides ourselves for our behavior would help restore personal responsibility.

I hate to see such a fun area get a bad name. Many people very much enjoy themselves every weekend downtown without harming or infringing on anyone else’s happiness. I had mentioned in another thread how I enjoy showing off our downtown to friends and family from out of town. They are usually quite impressed.

Personally, I do not like energy drinks. Their popularity is huge right now. I fear they will be the next cigarettes though. At the high rate they are being consumed, I think they will have some serious long term health consequences. Adding them to alcohol is mixing a depressant and a stimulant. That is not good for one’s health either. I don’t think many people realize the negative side effects of this new toy. Banning energy drinks may not fix our poor behavior problems, but it may save people pain and agony in the future. I find it weird no one else sees this negative side like I do. Maybe I am just being overly paranoid and pessimistic.

I agree with most everything you say here. I too am proud of Mankato. We live here. It is our home. Like any place, we regret the irresponsible in the community. I feel it is important to address it becasue the perpetrators need that "Aqua Velva" slap in the face to wake up and grow up. It's this irresponsibility that's costing us all a whole bunch of money and time. Most important, they jeopardizing the potential safety of everyone in town who might visit downtown. Tourists won't want ot come there if they feel it is dangerous, maybe not even locals. I have no time for people you look to mix any kind of concoction to get a better "high". They must have too much time on their hands and need to keep busier.

Maybe these people need to be kept busy. If only jail time could turn back to hard labor. We have numerous rock quarries and it might be a little reahbilitative to take these offenders and have them break rocks while serving their sentence. Then, they might work harder at avoiding activities that might lead to arrest.

The pain suffered by these people is self-induced. They are only adding another disease (alcoholism) that will cause a whole lot more pain. They need to feel less sorry for themselves and start contributiong to society in a positive way.